Episode 82: What to Do When You Switch Niches? with Guest Emily Levy

Announcer: Welcome to The Path To Profit Podcast, with your hosts Dr. Minette Riordan and Brad Dobson.

Minette Riordan: Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Path To Profit Podcast. I am Dr. Minette Riordan, with my husband, Brad Dobson. At the Path to Profit Academy we help creative entrepreneurs to turn their bright, shiny ideas and their creative genius into profitable businesses. On the podcast we love talking to other creatives who are having amazing success and amazing journeys. Or, in the case of our guest today, having some really amazing pivots and course correction in their business. So, super excited to welcome Emily Levy to the call. Emily, so great to see you.

Emily Levy: I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Brad Dobson: Emily knows about technology.

Minette Riordan: I know, right?

Brad Dobson: I love this.

Minette Riordan: Yeah. We may talk a little bit about tech, but I want to start, Emily, by sharing the techie piece that you’ve been doing, and kind of where you’re going, and maybe a little bit about your journey, because I think it’s so helpful to other entrepreneurs to hear that things change. Right?

Emily Levy: They do, it’s true. It’s funny. I had a little bit of a reaction when you said course correction, because that kind of implies that there was something wrong that the course that I was on, and actually I don’t think that at all. I know that’s just a term that we use to talk about shifting directions.

Minette Riordan: No, that’s a great point. Actually, as I was saying it, this is really more about coming full circle, right?

Emily Levy: It is, absolutely. About, let’s see, how far back do I want to start this story. The business that I’ve been in for the last 6 or 7 years kind of started by accident. I went to a business training program, because I really wanted to start a business doing consulting, and coaching, and writing, and speaking on the topic of how to make a bigger difference in the world, in the social justice, social impact realm. I got really discouraged when the leader of that training said to me, “You’ll never make money at that. People don’t have an urgent enough need for help in that area to pay you for it.” I wouldn’t ordinarily listen to just one person saying that, but it hooked right into stuff that I already feared.

So, I thought that this was just not the thing that I’m going to be able to make money at. What am I going to do instead, while I’m figuring out … While I’m figuring out what to do instead, what am I going to do to make money? It’s kind of a funny thing, that throughout my life a big motivator has been when things aren’t fair, I have to do something. Even when I was a little kid, that was what I complained about is, “It’s not fair! It’s not fair!”, in my family, and everywhere else.

So, I was sitting in this business training, where people had paid thousands of dollars to be there. And, I realized that a lot of them were actually not going to be able to take advantage of it, because they didn’t have the tech skills they needed to put stuff into place. I felt like that was really unfair. And, it got that urge to help with injustice stirred up in me, and just raised my hand and said, “While I’m figuring out what to do next, I’m happy to help any of you with the technology for your businesses.” I actually got a client from doing that. It turned into this business that I never intended to have, which is helping entrepreneurs who are starting up, get their businesses online, set up their technology for their email lists and their websites, and understand how to use social media for business, and that sort of thing. It’s been really enjoyable to do, and that passion that I had originally, to help people make a bigger social impact hasn’t gone away.

What I told myself at the time was I’m going to do this other thing for a while, because I think it will be an easier way for me to make a living, while my youngest child is still at home and I really want to have time with her. Actually, it was not an easy way to make a living. Definitely, a lot of people needed it, but when I think about when she looks back on her teenage years, she’s going to remember me behind the computer. And, that’s really painful to me. She is now launched, and actually, she’s almost twenty. I’ve decided that it’s time to circle back to what I wanted to do, using all the things that I have learned about how to grow a business, how to grow technology to grow a business, how to get clients, things like that. Sadly, peoples’ urgency for how they can make a bigger difference in the world is much greater that it was 7 years ago, because of what’s going on in the United States right now.

Minette Riordan: It is sad, but it also feels like divine timing, in a way. The work that you’re doing is definitely more needed.

Emily Levy: For me. Yeah, I think that’s true.

Brad Dobson: Yeah. I mean, I get where you’re coming from. It’s not a fantastic scenario, but I wouldn’t put … It’s interesting, I wouldn’t have used the term ‘sadly’. I think a world where more people want to engage in that way is probably a better one.

Emily Levy: Absolutely. It’s just the reason that’s sad.

Brad Dobson: Yeah. No doubt, no doubt.
That’s really neat to have gone full circle like that. It’s funny, because it’s almost as if your technology assistance business growth thing was training for yourself.

Emily Levy: Absolutely. And, I’m in a much better position to be able to do this work now, than I was then, in a whole bunch of ways.

Brad Dobson: Yeah, I feel that’s true for us. So, Emily and I met through the same coaching program, which was an amazing coaching program in many, many ways. We learned a lot. We’re both letting go and adding new programs this year that feel, for me personally, like coming full circle. Bringing more art, more journaling, more writing, more of the self-help creativity coaching that I wanted to do 5 years ago, and ended up going down a business coaching track. Because, that’s where the clients were, it didn’t have anything to do with that particular program.

What I learned from that program, I feel like they lived up to their promise, which is, “We know so much about starting a business, and how to sell. How to heart-sell”, than we would have without it. I think for the people that are listening, it’s knowing that everything we have done in our life, brings us to the particular moment. The fact that you’re so powerfully positioned right now to step forward, both from a tactical perspective, and an educational-intellectual perspective, but from a mindset perspective as well. Right? I think, it’s such a part of the journey that it requires confidence, as well as tactics.

Emily Levy: It’s true.

Brad Dobson: I’m interested, if you can share, maybe get into some specifics about where this, as Minette called it, a pivot, or where this circling back takes Emily Levy in terms of who you’re going to help, what you’re going to … What are you putting out into the world as the new, old you.

Minette Riordan: Yeah it’s like between making tech easy, and making a difference in the world.

Emily Levy: One of the things that I’m going to be able to do now, that I probably wouldn’t have focused nearly as much, had I started this new project when I originally intended to is how to use technology to make a bigger difference. So, I will be able to help my clients with online public relations, and how to have an online presence that works for their project, or organization. I’ve actually done that already, with one organization that I work with, that I was working with on a volunteer basis. They brought me on to do some consulting to help them. They didn’t have an email list. They didn’t have a way to communicate with people. They had no idea how to set up something like that. Now, I’m creating a website for them, which is something I don’t do very often, but because it’s an organization I really believe in, I really wanted to do that for them.

I recently helped them, actually just last week. This was kind of a wild project. I hadn’t done anything like this before. They wanted to have a meeting of some of the partners in the project. A lot of people couldn’t come in person, but many people could. I’ve hosted a lot of meetings on Zoom, and other conference call services. But, never when there were both people in the room, and people remotely. And, that was quite a challenge. I was actually hosting the conversation, and facilitating the conversation in the room that I wasn’t in, with the people that were also on the call. It was wild. So, there’s ways that I’m bringing that technology in. I totally lost your question, Brad.

Minette Riordan: No. You actually did a good job at answering it. But, as you move forward, who is it that you’re serving, and what is it that you’re helping them do?

Emily Levy: Great. This is actually one of the things that I want to … I kind of taking a running start at this question, because I want to answer it in a way that may be helpful to other people who are thinking about how do I do something that seems like I may not be able to make money at it. Remember, part of my story was I got discouraged, because I was told that people don’t have an urgent enough need to hire me to help them figure out how to make a bigger difference in the world. And, at the time, I was looking at working with people who say things like, “I really want to do something that will matter, that will make change in the world. But, I don’t know what 1 person can do”, or, “I don’t know what I can do that will really make a difference.” And, they’re stuck not doing anything, because they don’t know what they can do.

I still love helping people who are in that situation. I realize that group of people really isn’t ready to make a big investment, or even a medium sized investment in getting help. They might be ready to go to a 2 hour workshop, or to a talk. I do a talk that’s called, The World Needs Who You Are Right Now, that I’ve done for a couple of meet-ups, that I’m doing at a coworking space next week. I’ll be doing it on Facebook Live, and things like that. I thought about who is actually ready to have the kind of help that I can give, who is in a position where their investment in what they’re doing is great enough that they see that they need some help, and that they’ll need to pay for that help.

My ideal client, at this point, is somebody who has a project that they want to do. They have an idea, they think it will make a big difference in the world in some area of social impact, whether it’s environmental justice, social justice of some sort. And, whose project isn’t getting off the ground. It might not be getting off the ground because they don’t have the tech skills. Or, because they don’t know how to bring people on board to help them with they aren’t good at. Or, because they’re really asking themselves, either on the surface, or under the surface, “Who am I to do this project.” They don’t have the confidence, or the belief in themselves.

Minette Riordan: Yeah. That [crosstalk 00:11:48] question for people to answer.

Brad Dobson: These would be nonprofits, for instance?

Emily Levy: I don’t actually care what form the work is in. The thing that’s in common is that it’s project-based. Some will be existing nonprofits that have a new project they want to do. Some will want to create a nonprofit. Some will be wanting to do their project through their business. Some might be wanting to do an art project on their own, or with 1 partner, or a group of children, or something like that, that has social impact as the goal. Some people might want to do an individual, or small group project, or community group that doesn’t even have nonprofit status. It doesn’t matter to me what the format of it is. What matters to me is that they’re invested enough in really wanting to do this thing. That they’re ready to get the help that they need to get it off the ground.

Minette Riordan: I love that. I’m curious as you’re switching from one community that you’re serving to another, what do you see the challenge being in changing niches. I know this is a question that comes up, like the whole question around, “Oh my god. I have to pick a niche?”, right? Then, “What do you mean I need an ideal client”, to, “Okay. I’ve been serving these people, and now I’m shifting.” There’s a whole business conversation there, right?

Emily Levy: Yeah. It’s tricky, and I won’t say that I have it all figured out. I can tell you what I’m doing, but we’re too early in the process to know how well it’s working. So, one of the first things that I did, is about a year ago, I started included in my bio, whenever I did talks, or anywhere that I had a listing that I love working with people who were out to change the world. Even though what I was saying, or was helping people with was technology and online marketing. I just started putting that in there. You know, kind of, this is who I like to work with. And, using more examples from that kind of work.

I also had somebody approach me who just wanted one … You know those people who are like, “Can I just pick your brain.” He said, “I’ll pay you for 1 hour of your time. I want to figure out how to use digital marketing strategies for the nonprofit that I’m involved in.” I said to him, “What would be actually more helpful to me than you paying me for 1 hour, because I don’t really sell my time that way, is if the hour is helpful to you, for you to write a testimonial about that.” I started getting testimonials that were about work with people who are doing social impact work.

Minette Riordan: That’s really smart.

Emily Levy: Thank you.

Brad Dobson: Yeah. Super smart.

Emily Levy: Then, on my website … So, I have an event coming up, which I’ll talk about. Which is called the social impact retreat, and we can talk more about that. I made a page for it on my website. At first, it was just a page that you had to have the link to get to. Then, I decided to actually put it in the navigation for my site. So, there’s now a navigation for my site. So, there’s now a social … I think it’s the tab says-
Bless you.

-Says social impact, and it can get people there. So, people can find it from my regular website. And then, I did an event last fall, which actually Minette, you were part of, and hopefully your podcast listeners caught wind of. After the white supremacy demonstration in Charlottesville, Virginia, I really felt like I needed to something about that situation right then. I, in twenty-four hours, went from having this idea to putting it into action, which was called the VIP Day Extravaganza For Social … Sorry, for Racial Justice.

What I did was find a dozen other people in the coaching industry, including you, who offer VIP days to their clients. So, that’s a time when they spend a day, or a half a day with 1 client, focusing on helping with whatever services they provide. Just for that 1 person for a day, or a piece of a day. Who are willing to offer, at least 1 VIP day, and donate a third, or more, of the profits to an organization, which I chose, that I believed in, and believed was doing great work, and I still do. The Southern Poverty Law Center, around racial justice issues. That was a way to tie together a coaching industry, where I’ve been living in my work life for the last 7 years, and social justice. We ended up raising 10 thousand dollars for the Southern Poverty Law Center through that.

Minette Riordan: Woo!

Emily Levy: Yeah. I’m really excited about that. I think I’ll be doing that again. In the meantime, I found out kind of who are some of the people who are willing to speak out. Who are in the coaching industry, and willing speak out on social justice issues, or who care about them. I actually had twenty people contact me and say, “If you do this again, I’d like to be part of it.” There’s things that I would do differently … So, I did a crossover project. I think that’s really a key thing. Then, I’m also starting to do more of the kind of work been doing, for the kind of organizations I want to work within the future.

Minette Riordan: Sorry, I love that. I just want to … Because, I wrote down over here, you’re an action taker. I really admire that about you, is that when you have an idea, you take action. You’re very consistent in that action. It can be both a blessing and a curse to move really quickly, as we all know.

Emily Levy: Yeah.

Minette Riordan: I love what you said about, if you’re in this place where you’re trying to shift directions, or work with a new niche, crossover projects was one. Before you commit to the new niche, continuing to work in the current niche. Like, don’t burn your boat while you’re in it.

Emily Levy: Absolutely.

Minette Riordan: You need to keep your income consistent. So, it’s one of the things that Brad and I are doing. We’re both launching kind of fun-

Brad Dobson: We’re burning our boat.

Minette Riordan: We’re burning … No. We’re … Yeah, we’re burning our boat. No. We’re launching fun passion projects this year, right? I think, that we’re passionate about, because we have all these great skills. We know how to build community, build following, build businesses. So, we’re actually taking on new projects, which meant letting go of some of the work in the current version of The Path To Profit Academy, and making time for those new projects. So, you are someone who I know time and balance is important to. You also have … You have several big events coming. Not only are you hosting a live event, you’re getting married in March, which is so exciting.

Emily Levy: It’s true, it’s true.

Minette Riordan: How are you making time for all these different projects?

Emily Levy: Great question. When you have the answer, please let me know. Let’s see, one of the things that I’m doing is that I’m looking for, and may have found, I’m not sure, I’ve got a couple of strong leads, some ongoing work in my former niche. It’s not really former, it’s current. I am still doing that work. And, I may always do that work. I don’t know. It may be that I decide that the social impact work isn’t how I’m going to make a living. That I will just do that in another way from how I make a living.

I’m looking for an ongoing project that will bring me steady income, rather than doing short-term projects for a lot of different clients. It may even end up being something like doing coaching for somebody else’s business. That’s something I’m open to. Or, it may be running Facebook ads, which I know how to do, as an affiliate for other companies. That kind of thing.

My first goal is to stop spending time marketing this business that I’m moving away from. So, still doing … Working that business when the work comes to me, or finding, and/or, finding 1 project that will be ongoing, that will have steady income. So that, the time that I’ve been spending marketing the new thing, I mean the old thing, the existing business, will be freed up to work on the new business.

Minette Riordan: I love that. It was one of the decisions we made was to cut back on the blog, focus more on the podcast. They’re like small things. They sound small, but they take up a ton of time, and we feel like we’ve been just spending so much energy pumping out the marketing. But actually, by cutting back, we get to do a better job at everything, as well.

Emily Levy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Minette Riordan: I love that sense that you’re cutting back on the marketing push that you’ve been doing. But, your name is well-known in our community now. So, I think that you will, just by setting with the intention, continue to get the jobs that you want in the digital marketing.

Emily Levy: I hope so. It’s definitely slowed down, so if anybody watching this has been thinking, “Oh. Emily is probably too busy to do my project”, now would be a great time to reach out to me.

Minette Riordan: [inaudible 00:21:18], no!

Emily Levy: Yeah. Then, one of the challenges is I actually have something that’s about to go out to my email list. By the time this broadcasts, it will have gone out, telling them what I’m up to. I’m going to be switching to a different account, with ActiveCampaign, that’s for the new thing. It’s really different enough that I don’t feel like it’s an integrity to just take everybody along with me. But, I will give them an opportunity to opt in to the list that’s for the new business.

Minette Riordan: Go ahead. I love that. I want you to talk a little more about that, and about ActiveCampaign. I know you really know of ActiveCampaign.

Brad Dobson: I just had a couple of thoughts about your new niche. I’m guessing that those are the people, those people with the passion that are out there to help people, I’m guessing, they’re good networkers. I’m guessing, they’re the people, the really passionate ones are ones you can find relatively easily, through networking.

Minette Riordan: The ones that are super committed. Because, there’s lots of people that are passionate, that are hiding at home with their passion. Right?

Brad Dobson: Yeah, but you know if you said-

Emily Levy: I think both are true, yeah.

Brad Dobson: You know, you decided to go for a niche of people that made red socks, you might have a little more problem tracking down the exact makers of red socks.

Emily Levy: Unless they wear them, because that would make it really …

Brad Dobson: Whereas folks that are out there, and have the passion to be trying to drum up, well frankly money to support their cause are usually, they’re ringing a bell.

Emily Levy: Yes. Though, just like if you’re a business coach, and you focus on helping people who are overwhelmed, for example, you get people who are overwhelmed. If you focus on people who are desperate for money, it’s harder to get them to pay you.

Minette Riordan: I think what Brad was saying was the people who are super committed are probably already showing up on social media, they’re probably already showing up at local rallies. Right? That they’re already, their voice-

Emily Levy: Yes, yes. They can be found. I think, that’s absolutely key to having any business succeed, is that there is some place, and I think this was what you were saying, Brad, really, I made a joke about it, but [inaudible 00:23:44] get it. I think it’s that having who you identify as your ideal client, be someone in a group of people that can be found, that already gather somewhere, somehow, online, or offline, or both. Because, if they’re not coming together at all, they’re really hard to find. And, it becomes a lot more time consuming, and/or expensive to find them.

Minette Riordan: Yeah, we found that. We found that with one of our niches last year. That they’re not gathering, they’re super introverted, and they were hard to find. We’ve got some tidbits that we’re doing this year as well, too.

Brad Dobson: I think that’s definitely a big pro in the column of the niche that you have. You brought up, actually, the other point I was going to make. It’s kind of, I guess you can tell us, it seems like a negative. There is sort of a stereotype of that person being, you know, trying to drum up money for people to support their cause. Maybe in the Bay Area, there’s a lot of either non-profits, or cause related things that are really well-funded, because there’s money around for that and there’s a lot of people have that in their conscience. But, are you finding that you’re running into a lot of those people who just have no money?

Emily Levy: I don’t know yet.

Brad Dobson: Okay.

Minette Riordan: Great answer.

Emily Levy: Yeah.

Minette Riordan: I mean, because it’s true, right? I totally get that. I want to come back around ActiveCampaign. Our audience has heard us talk about ONTRAPORT. We love ONTRAPORT, but ONTRAPORT isn’t for everyone.

Emily Levy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Minette Riordan: Share a little bit about why you love ActiveCampaign, because I know you’re a big fan.

Emily Levy: I am. ActiveCampaign is a software that I use for my email list. It does a lot of the things that ONTRAPORT does. It doesn’t do all of the things that ONTRAPORT does. It’s, I think, easier for non-techie people to use, and less expensive. It starts, if you’re just starting your list, and have, I think it’s up to 500 people, it’s only 9 dollars a month for the plan that can get you started. With that plan, you could do MailChimp for free, but if you are serious about using it for your business, then you need some features that the free version of MailChimp doesn’t have.

One of the things I love about ActiveCampaign is that it’s easy, and actually for me, it’s fun to build automation. They can be pretty complicated. They can do all kinds of things, from the basic sending out the thank you notification with the link to your free gift, when somebody subscribes to your list. They can be very complex, and you can say, if somebody visits this page on my website more than 2 times, send them an email offering them a discount on the thing they were just looking at on my website.

Minette Riordan: I love that.

Emily Levy: They can be complex like that. It’s quick to set up forms. You can have as many forms for each list as you want, which some of the services don’t do. Then, each form that you create, you can put in different places. It’s easy to … You have an option of having double opt-in, on or off. I know MailChimp didn’t used to have that option. I don’t know if they do now on it. That’s actually with the new regulations that are coming on in Europe, that anyone whose website is available in Europe is going to have to be dealing with, by spring of this year, I think we’re all going to be needing to use double opt-in.

I love that ActiveCampaign is a small company that really listens to suggestions. Every month they come out with something new. Like, one of the brand new things that I think has just come out in the last month, is you can … Let’s see, how to say this simply. Some of you may know that you can use your email list to create a custom audience for Facebook ad. And, ActiveCampaign has a way that will automatically update as new people join your email list. That they’ll automatically be updated in your Facebook audiences.

Brad Dobson: Very nice.

Emily Levy: They keep making it better and better, and not raising the prices.

Minette Riordan: Wow.

Emily Levy: There’s different levels of service, and you aren’t automatically bumped up to another level of service with your list size. You can decide that you want the simplest service, even with a larger list. Or, more features, even when you have a smaller list. All those are things that I like about it. I actually-

Minette Riordan: I love that. I also appreciate that you were able, this is such a beautiful example of the work that you do for people, because you explain that in really simple terms that most people can understand. So, if you’re listening to this, and you know you want to be doing email marketing this year, Emily is an amazing resource. Because, that’s part of what you do, is help people get their sales funnels automated and in place, right?

Emily Levy: Yes, absolutely. So, whether it’s teaching you how to make automations, or building them for you. I also have some that are already built, that I can just provide to people who I’m working with, who are my clients in other ways. That’s actually a cool thing about ActiveCampaign, too. Once you’ve built an automation, you can share it with other people, and they can use it in their account.

Minette Riordan: That’s super cool. If you’re listening to this, and you are also someone who has a passion for social justice, for making a difference in the world, for changing the environment, you have a project, or an idea that you want to get out into the world, digital marketing, I think, is essential in today’s marketplace. In some ways the way that you’re marrying the 2 concepts is really valuable to people.

Emily Levy: I think so.

Minette Riordan: Yeah.

Emily Levy: I think so.

Minette Riordan: Before we close-out here, tell us about your live event that’s coming up.

Emily Levy: Okay. This is the Social Impact Retreat, it’s coming up in May. It’s an intimate retreat for those people I described who have a project they want to do to make a difference in the world, and want help getting it off the ground. It’s 3 days, it’s only for twelve people. Really, it’s a residential retreat in the foothills of the Sierras. It’s about 3 hours from the San Francisco Bay area. We’ll really have time to dive in.

It will be a combination of talking about strategy and tactics, and individual coaching. We’ll be doing some breakthrough coaching to work on what gets in the way internally, of people really stepping out into the world, of doing their work. And, there’ll also quiet time for people to work on their project. The goal is for people to have a really clear plan of what to do next, by the time they leave.

Minette Riordan: I love that. Is there an application process?

Emily Levy: There is. You can go to emilylevy.com, and my last name is L-E-V-Y. I guess it’s on the screen, people can see it, right? Emilylevy.com, and click on the Social Impact menu item, and you’ll get to the page that talks about that retreat. The direct link to it is emilylevy.com/social-impact-retreat-page. I don’t know if you have somewhere you put that link.

Minette Riordan: Yeah. Everything will be in the show notes. They can go to emilylevy.com, L-E-V-Y dot com, and find the link to that at Social Justice. Or, go to our show notes at pathtoprophetacademy.com, and you’ll be able to find all the links to find Emily there, as well.

Emily Levy: Great. Then, one other thing is one of the big ways that I’m going to be working on building my audience for this, my new audience, is by doing Facebook Lives. I have a list of topics I’m going to cover. Many of them are relevant to people who want to expand their reach for their business, as well.

Minette Riordan: Nice.

Emily Levy: So, if you want to get notified when I’m going live, you can message me on Facebook by going to … In your browser, go to m.me/emilylevy, all one word. That will take you right to where you can send me a Facebook message. Then, I’ll be able to message you back with notifications when I go live.

Brad Dobson: Great stuff.

Minette Riordan: Super cool. I love that.

Brad Dobson: I love who you’re helping, and what you’re doing for those people. That’s really cool.

Minette Riordan: I love the way everything that you’ve done has really positioned you to be able to just do this, and right timing. And, I just want to say loud and very publicly, I am so excited for you and your partner. The world is changing, and that the 2 of you are getting married in March. It’s so exciting, and I plan on being there.

Emily Levy: Fantastic! You should be getting your invitation within a week, or so. I hope that you can both make it. Thanks so much for having me, and your persistence with this podcast. I know it’s a huge project, and really a lot of work. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on it. It was fun.

Minette Riordan: It was so wonderful to have you. Thank you for sharing your journey. I loved both your willingness to share the inner game stuff that you’re challenged with, as well as some of those practical techie details that are making it all work a little less challengingly.

Brad Dobson: Great stuff.

Minette Riordan: Awesome, thanks everybody!

Emily Levy: Thanks a lot!

Minette Riordan: We’re Minette Riordan, this is Brad Dobson. We’re The Path To Profit Podcast, and we will see you in February, where our scene is time management and productivity.

Brad Dobson: Cool. Bye guys.

Emily Levy: Fantastic.

Minette Riordan: Bye everybody.

Announcer: Thanks for listening.